Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Nightmaster on <01-31-17/1240:33>
-
I got this idea sometime ago (months). The idea was to make a system that once installed into a Mil Spec armor it would increase the reflexes of the user without it be an impant. I know that the impant (wired reflexes) deal with perception, reaction time and muscular response but I think that I have found a way to allow for some external wired reflexes to work. The answer is Sinsense.
Sinsense, if everyone remember, deal with hijacking the user five senses so that he/she could experience sensations, feelings and even time as another person. That same system can be used to give the user the same kind of sensorial input as the cyber impant.
Combining a trode tiara build into the helmet of the armor (or a datajack connector if the user have one) and adding a serie of extra micro servors and sensors to the armor (in the same way that the strenght upgrade does) I think its possible to create a system that would allow a unaugmented individual doning the armor to be able to be as fast as a individual using the implant.
My only problem is that I not sure of the possible quirks or limitations such system would have in game mechanics.
Could any of you guys help me with that idea?
-
What you describe is in essence a hollow drone that you jump in with hot sim, that just happens to contain your body.
And that's why you probably won't find someone investing into that idea: It's much cheaper and safer to have the rigger somewhere else and stick a drone into that milspec armor
-
Such a thing wouldn't really have much use, either. Why not just use the (significantly cheaper, already available) augmentation instead? If you're Awakened, you wouldn't need the suit-- Magicians and Adepts have ways to improve their reflexes, and they're much more effective than Wired Reflexes.
Compared to a drone, in addition to what Jack Spade said, there's also anthroform drones. Of course, milspec armor is much more defensive than normal drones... I swear drones used to be actually a threat, not just the "cheap, we don't really give a shit" version of security. In 5th edition they altered it so anyone with the easily available Armor Jacket can take a bullet significantly easier than your average security drone. So this theoretical "milspec armor drone" would have the benefit of being the most powerfully armored drone in existence.
-
So what your describing is commonly known as power armor. Its a very small drone with vehicle rules that you can fit inside and control by "jumping into" the vehicle. I don't know about previous editions from 3rd on back but I remember the bonuses gained from this were thought to be good enough every rigger wanted one since 4rth edition. the writers have explicitly not provided anything that could be used directly this way for the most part and even provided a fluff reference, I believe in the war supplement book for shadowrun 4rth edition, stating that several companies R&D had been working on such a device for decades now but most of them end up being too slow or so fast they hurt the person inside. Think Hammer tech trying to recreate the iron man suite early on. The real reason I suspect is why pay for cybernetic limbs when every player can be iron man and if every player is iron man its not really cyberpunk at that point.
So on to trying to do what you want to do in game. If your looking for an essence free bonus to initiative built into the armor try an auto injector. Jazz plus kamikaze work wonders especially if you have narco gene mod from chrome flesh. You'll need a reasonable high will and body but generally speaking nothing so high its too difficult to get. Generally I'm looking for about 12 dice to resist addiction. there are a few qualities you can take as well to help with this as well.
second while you cant use the armor as a base to make a drone/vehicle there are vehicles that can help with this. just keep in mind the vehicle modding rules are a bit disappointing in this area. the rigger 5.0 book I believe has the diatsu caterpiller horsemen vehicle. its can pretty much go any handicapped accessible place and with smart tires can even navigate stairs. the armor though is pretty low and you may end up buying several as the vehicle gets shot up during runs over the course of a career.
A third option as Jack_spade mentioned is to put a regular anthro drone in the armor and jump into the drone from a safe location. your vehicle armor will shoot through the roof making it unlikely you take much damage at all which is really powerful. The downside to this is that the GM puts the objective in a faradayed caged portion of a secured building preventing outside hackers from being able to get in and now your done is working off of pilot and autosofts and you cant help the team except by keeping the engine warm. it may never come up but its something that can be done to you.
-
What I was thinking was not even power armor, like Iron Man and the likes. I was thinking more of the cybersuit that several other cyberpunk settings have. If you search you will find several "models" of cybersuits in cyberpunk settings.
A suit that is not armored by itself but offer almost the same benefits of a Wired Reflexes implant.
Not armor.
Not strength.
Just speed.
Now I believe that such system must have some difference if compared to the cyber implant. I just dont know how to rule it (different max speed, dice penalties and etc) and thus my question here.
-
It's an Armor Mod called "Auto-Injector" and has a staggering array of Combat enhancement available.
If initiative boosting was as easy as Wired Reflexes in a shirt the corps would be all over it. So would players.
-
Sorry, you can't really have more speed without increasing strength - at least not if you strap a heavy exoskeleton to your body.
-
Even the Fourth Edition iteration of power armour didn't enhance Reaction. Only Strength and Agility were options.
-
I am not talking about speed as in running speed. I am talking about speed as in reaction speed and number of initiative passes. That is the Wired Reflexes cyber implant and as far I remember this implant dont increase the user strength, only reaction.
What I am trying to do is to create a armor mod that gives the user the same benefits that a Wired Reflexes do. The only thing I am having difficulty is to stabilish a penalty or limitation on the system.
I want that limitation/penalty because I stand that the implant would have better efficiency in the job of increasing the reaction and number of actions of the user than the armor mod.
Hope you guys understand what I am trying to do and give me some ideas.
-
Think about it: If it was so easy to build that system into armor, why would anyone sacrifice half their essence or more to get the implant?
You could install an autoinjector and fill it with Kamikaze or another Initiative booster, that's the closest you can get.
Of course in your own game you can do what you want.
-
Oh I do understand and I think the others do too.
I'm talking about physics: Reaction improvement means you need less time between sensory input, calculating response and giving orders to your muscles to move accordingly. Since you aren't actually engaging your own muscles but instead the servos in your armor, those need to move the weight of your body as well as the weight of the armor. And not only that, they need to move all of this faster than your own muscles (otherwise there wouldn't be an improvement in reaction) and do this with precision, meaning not only high acceleration but also deceleration.
In other words this armor must be able to generate a higher force (i.e. be stronger) than you too.
-
Long story short, Wired Reflexes requires significant modification to the brain and spine that you cannot install externally. Well, you can, but you need a rigger interface to use them and at that point you're not using Wired Reflexes, you're rigging. Also, your meat body is unconscious when using them.
-
I am not talking about speed as in running speed. I am talking about speed as in reaction speed and number of initiative passes. That is the Wired Reflexes cyber implant and as far I remember this implant dont increase the user strength, only reaction.
What I am trying to do is to create a armor mod that gives the user the same benefits that a Wired Reflexes do. The only thing I am having difficulty is to stabilish a penalty or limitation on the system.
I want that limitation/penalty because I stand that the implant would have better efficiency in the job of increasing the reaction and number of actions of the user than the armor mod.
Hope you guys understand what I am trying to do and give me some ideas.
From a fluff perspective wired reflexes requires an incredibly invasive surgery, as was pointed out, that requires modification to pretty much all major nerves in the persons body. Simsense or jumping into a drone allows for greater reflexes due to the deep connection a control rig has with various parts of the brain and the lightning fast responses of a drones electronic parts. So if we use simsense to speed up reaction you need an exoskeleton suite with the faster electronic response times.
Now if you want to create your own fluff of some sort of cyber suit that increases reaction time but still be balanced in game power level wise why not reflavor the drug aspect and say that the experience of using the suit and having technologically enhanced reflexes is addictive. Like hot sim but more so. you've got the rules with jazz, cram or kamikaze and an autoinjector. your just reflavoring the effect to something more along the lines of the theme you want for the technology. I can certainly see something that speeds up your reaction speed as being highly addictive.
-
It's your game, do what you want. From a game balance perspective Enhanced Initiative is about the most expensive thing in the game for a Character. It requires either a significant Magical investment or a significant Essence/Nuyen Investment, or a high addiction risk drug boost.
If Wired Reflexes was available without the Essence cost, every character would likely have it, and then use PP, Essence, or Sustains for something else. Your table do as you will.
As others have stated, Anthro-form Drones are a thing, and are quite fast.
-
Oh, it's worth mentioning if nobody else has spelled it out clearly. Whether or not such a thing is physically possible is up in the air in Shadowrun, but from a metagame perspective, such a thing would never be put in the game.
It simply doesn't fit the themes the game presents; "everything has a price". Cyberware is a major part of Shadowrun; if there was an alternative that didn't have the same kind of drawbacks (or its own, like drugs), it would quickly make augmentation obsolete. If you read the fluff and narratives, you can understand it a bit better.
Maybe that doesn't matter to you; after all everyone is free to run the setting however they want. But it would be against the heart of the game in a way.
-
As firebug says above, everything has a price.
If you had a hotsimm rig that provided some reaction increase, let us just say +1/+1d6 for sake of argument, it would probably come with the downside of distorted perception and motion sickness in use and massive headaches when it was shut down. After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster and you mind/body is not ready for that.
I would allow it in a game with those downside and I can totally see some runners being tricked into fieldtesting it . . .
-
After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster
Unlike regular hotsim? ::)
-
After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster
Unlike regular hotsim? ::)
Not at the same time as you move your body, no. Only technomancers have been able to be in VR while fully conscious, and they need paranormal powers to do so.
-
You don't have to be moving your body meat-wise.
Also, it's good to know about RAS Override - aka, the thing that keeps you still while using simsense. Disabling it is *not* sole domain of technomancers.
-
I'm not talking about disabling RAS. I'm talking about the Mesh Reality... Thanks for assuming.
-
You're welcome.
Regardless of the means you were privately thinking of, everything else still stands where it was.
-
After all, the VR is trying to trick you into thinking/ moving/ being faster
Unlike regular hotsim? ::)
Hotsim lets your thoughts interact directly with the matrix, without filters, that is why it is "faster", you do not actually think faster, but your thoughts interact with the matrix instantly. If you tried to whip your body around as quickly as you can change trains of thought, things are going to break, which powered armor would have to compensate for, or at least try.
You don't have to be moving your body meat-wise.
Then you are not talking about the Mil Spec Armor Upgrade which this thread is suppose to be discussing.
-
Then you are not talking about the Mil Spec Armor Upgrade which this thread is suppose to be discussing.
Reconsider.
Battle armour already augments the user's physical actions and has to accommodate their range of motion. It's powered, (duh; that much armour is too heavy not to be) but the initiative for action comes from the user's movements.
Now imagine initiative for action does not come from the user's movements, but their simsense-given commands. The battle armour now performs their physical actions, while still accommodating their range of motion. (oh look - I'm talking about the milspec battle armour upgrade this thread is about!)
If you tried to whip your body around as quickly as you can change trains of thought, things are going to break
Then you shouldn't be able to do it with other initiative boosters and battle armour. Simple, but demonstrably not true, as there are no BA specific rules to that effect.
-
Then you are not talking about the Mil Spec Armor Upgrade which this thread is suppose to be discussing.
Reconsider.
Battle armour already augments the user's physical actions and has to accommodate their range of motion. It's powered, (duh; that much armour is too heavy not to be) but the initiative for action comes from the user's movements.
Now imagine initiative for action does not come from the user's movements, but their simsense-given commands. The battle armour now performs their physical actions, while still accommodating their range of motion. (oh look - I'm talking about the milspec battle armour upgrade this thread is about!)
If you tried to whip your body around as quickly as you can change trains of thought, things are going to break
Then you shouldn't be able to do it with other initiative boosters and battle armour. Simple, but demonstrably not true, as there are no BA specific rules to that effect.
The amount of power needed to aide the movement of someone in heavy armor is significantly smaller than the power necessary to move the dead weight of someone in said armor that has gone unconscious into VR. The armor might have servos and motors to assist the motion of the wearer to keep the weight from immobilizing them, but it probably isn't enough to move the armor autonomously, let alone with a body inside as well.
-
What's being described is basically a mech suit, which wouldn't be made. A rigger cocoon inside of a milspec drone already accomplishes what is wanted. If a specific human shape was needed, an anthrodrone would work better and there'd be no reason to have the rigger inside of it.
-
The amount of power needed to aide the movement of someone in heavy armor is significantly smaller than the power necessary to move the dead weight of someone in said armor that has gone unconscious into VR.
It's a hypothetical.
If you're risking hyper-extension injuries and such (which you shouldn't, as battle armour can operate safely with a reaction & initiative boosted operator), then RAS Override is there for relaxed musculature.
If the issue is power requirements (more of a 5e introduced issue to backpedal battle armour tech levels), then disabling RAS Override is the option to maintain physical movement and simsense control - but keep in mind that battle armour is powered to prevent weight being a hindrance, which means it should be able to support its own wearer-filled limbs.
If both are a problem, then you're just being difficult for difficulty's sake someone should have removed battle armour from 5e entirely just upgrade the strength, reduce the weight, improve the software ergonomics where it's breaking users, and keep going.
there'd be no reason to have the rigger inside of it
Cuts out the wireless hacking opportunity is the most obvious answer, and I'm confident some creative thought would bring others to bear.
-
Where are you getting the idea that Milspec armor is able to act fully autonomously?
Something can be powered to the point that it aids motion, possibly even enhancing Strength through the use of mechanical advantage (etc) but still not be able to move itself completely or even help a person move faster than they already can.
We already know, for example that the armor is impeding enough that it slows down the wearer.
Even back in 4th edition, when they allowed the milspec armor to have some exclusive improvements, Strength was the only thing that could be improved, Agility and Reaction could be mitigated (by way of reducing the penalties from overencumbrance), but not enhanced. The armor has movement assist, not enough to move independently.
Even with RAS Override disabled, the user's physical body would still not be wired to be able to move/react faster. Either the armor would "react" faster and strain the user's limbs, or it wouldn't be able to move itself correctly as the body inside isn't operating the armor correctly.
-
Where are you getting the idea that Milspec armor is able to act fully autonomously?
I don't recall stating that outright. Battle Armour is not simply stacking ergonomically shaped plates of armour over a person's entire body, however. This is powered, mechanised armour that will act in conjunction with the wearer to lift what is some very heavy and solid armour, or provide an equivalent to security armour that can be worn for longer stretches of time.
Fourth edition is most explicit in pointing this out.By integrating additional servo-motors, improved joints, and similar enhancements, the armor’s mobility is increased to allow users that are not as strong and well trained to wear it without being slowed down too much.
Not just integrating servo-motors and all that fun stuff, but additional servo-motors and fun stuff. You can have barely above zero capability to carry anything beyond your own body weight (let alone a full suit of battle armour) and still be mobile.
Something can be powered to the point that it aids motion, possibly even enhancing Strength through the use of mechanical advantage (etc) but still not be able to move itself completely or even help a person move faster than they already can.
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.
Either the armor would "react" faster and strain the user's limbs
Just going to point out the level of ergonomic customisation involved here, and say 'no'.Each suit protects from head to toe, custom-ft to the wearer for maximum ergonomic freedom and comfort, an expense that keeps it from the ordinary field grunt.
If you want to get really fancy with fourth edition;
For wannabe street sams, superficial cybernetics are available that look like real cyberarms and legs at one tenth the price.
To hide your meat body, you can get modified cybernetic casings that make you appear augmented. Superficial cyberware can have some functionality like cyber spurs and blades, but they have to fit over the existing limb (items such as cyberguns or raptor cyberlegs cannot be included).
custom strength, custom agility, tough and non-invasive external limb augmentation. It exists.
-
Even in sci-fi stories where actual powered armor is a thing, there's a difference between armor that helps your movements, adding to your strength and running speed, and armor that supersedes your movements (acting faster than you're physically capable of).
What you're talking about isn't milspec armor any more. You're talking about a battlesuit that you're jumped into, directly controlling. And that's a whole different kettle of fish. FYI, there isn't a combat-practical battlesuit around, either. Trust me, my AI samurai has looked.
-
Not just integrating servo-motors and all that fun stuff, but additional servo-motors and fun stuff. You can have barely above zero capability to carry anything beyond your own body weight (let alone a full suit of battle armour) and still be mobile.
That's just completely not true, both in 5th and 4th editions. In 5th edition, Mil-spec armor is still considered restrictive, the enhancements are enough to make the armor more protective while just as impeding as the security armor.
In 4th edition, the bonus of the milspec armor was that it allowed the wearer to have less Body before being considered encumbered (it changed the calculation from Body x 2 to Body x 3). This meant that a wearer still had to have at least a Body of 4 in order to wear the very lightest of Milspec armors.
The section you quoted was the part about adding the Mobility upgrade, so yes, the base armor has some servo-motors. These things aid movement, it doesn't make the armor an autonomous unit. For example, on the very lightest armor (the Oyoroi armor with 11/11), upgraded with the maximum Mobility Upgrade R3; a character with Body 1 would still be encumbered at -1 to Agility and Reaction by this armor. Body x 3, compared to the 11 armor, is 8 points over-encumbrance, which results in a -4 penalty (1 per 2 points), compensated 3 points by the mobility upgrade down to -1. So Even the lightest armor with the best upgrades is not wearable, as you say, by someone "barely above zero capability to carry anything beyond [their] own body weight"
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.
If you want to get really fancy with fourth edition;
For wannabe street sams, superficial cybernetics are available that look like real cyberarms and legs at one tenth the price.
To hide your meat body, you can get modified cybernetic casings that make you appear augmented. Superficial cyberware can have some functionality like cyber spurs and blades, but they have to fit over the existing limb (items such as cyberguns or raptor cyberlegs cannot be included).
custom strength, custom agility, tough and non-invasive external limb augmentation. It exists.
Pretty sure that the custom strength and custom agility aren't things that would be considered "non-invasive" or superficial. To get augmentations to Strength or Agility normally requires replacing musculature. And also note, that even if it did all that, none of it enhances Reaction which is what this thread is trying to argue.
-
none of it enhances Reaction
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.
That's just completely not true, both in 5th and 4th editions.
Let's go over it.
Armour Encumbrance for 4e armour comes in at Body * 3.
The -1 encumbrance modifier to Agility and Reaction applies for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that value is exceeded.
Mobility Upgrade goes up to Rating 3. That means 6 additional points of armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
Body 2, Strength 1 provides a high enough encumbrance threshold for light milspec armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
5e, Restrictive.
Halve Movement and incur Fatigue rolls with every Running check, even the first one.
Zero mention of strength or body. No weight limit. Nada.
the base armor has some servo-motors. These things aid movement, it doesn't make the armor an autonomous unit.
(5e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 2 dice on a lift test can wear milspec battle armour and walk as effectively as anyone else.
(4e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 3 dice on a lift test can wear mobility upgraded light military armour and function normally.
In both cases the person is not carrying the majority of their total armoured weight. Every motion is supported, enhanced, and assisted. From that point, it's a matter of upgrades towards operating based on the user's thought motive input, rather than their physical motive input.
Pretty sure that the custom strength and custom agility aren't things that would be considered "non-invasive" or superficial.
The onus is on you to connect the information, then. Each superficial cybernetic limb comes with it's own strength and agility 3.
-
none of it enhances Reaction
That's why it would be an upgrade, not a current feature.
And you'll note that as mentioned before in this thread, it seems to be pretty consistent that technological augmentations to Reaction are unavailable without Essence costs.
That's just completely not true, both in 5th and 4th editions.
Let's go over it.
Armour Encumbrance for 4e armour comes in at Body * 3.
The -1 encumbrance modifier to Agility and Reaction applies for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that value is exceeded.
Mobility Upgrade goes up to Rating 3. That means 6 additional points of armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
Body 2, Strength 1 provides a high enough encumbrance threshold for light milspec armour with -0 encumbrance modifier.
That's exactly my point, the user needs to have higher than minimum stats in order to be able to wear even the lightest of the mil-spec armors. They can't even wear the helmet with that without suffering encumbrance penalties.
5e, Restrictive.
Halve Movement and incur Fatigue rolls with every Running check, even the first one.
Zero mention of strength or body. No weight limit. Nada.
the base armor has some servo-motors. These things aid movement, it doesn't make the armor an autonomous unit.
(5e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 2 dice on a lift test can wear milspec battle armour and walk as effectively as anyone else.
(4e) someone who can carry 10kg and rolls 3 dice on a lift test can wear mobility upgraded light military armour and function normally.
In both cases the person is not carrying the majority of their total armoured weight. Every motion is supported, enhanced, and assisted. From that point, it's a matter of upgrades towards operating based on the user's thought motive input, rather than their physical motive input.
Since you brought up the Strength+Body-based encumbrance I would be happy to point out that the rules don't actually say anything about armor not factoring into how much a person can carry. The pure weight-based encumbrance is completely arbitrary, because none of the gear has a listing for weight. It is up to the GM of a campaign to decide if things are "reasonable" and the rules are set up to have a system for if it really comes down to it. If you want to start factoring the weight of the armor into encumbrance, nothing in any of the rules say that it wouldn't count against the wearer's carried weight.
This whole thing is futile. You're bringing up points about how even the weakest person can wear this armor because it supports itself, but all of your reasoning is based purely on rules that aren't specific to the Milspec armor. The same exact rules apply to Armor Jackets, Security Armor, SWAT armor, etc. In 5th edition, none of these armors cause encumbrance, are you going to tell me that all of these armors have special gyros that allow the armor to move a body inside of it?
I will admit that the Milspec armor likely has some mechanical pieces in it that allow it aid the wearer's movement such that it is no more restrictive than security armor, despite being more protective. The same likely goes for the heavier levels of milspec, so that the bigger armors aren't significantly harder to wear. That would roughly simulate the situation we have in the 5th edition rules where the first set of base armor doesn't cause any specific encumbrance. But nothing in the description even borders on the idea that this even remotely approaches the level where it would allow full autonomous motion or even significantly aid the wearer in their own actions. The 5th edition version of Milspec no longer even has access to the strength enhancements and other utilities that they had in the 4e book. I could understand arguments to have those sorts of upgrades converted over (and I'm sure some groups probably have). But the whole point of this thread was asking if Wired Reflexes as an external unit is a reasonable upgrade to milspec style armor, and I haven't seen any evidence that could support that sort of idea.
Pretty sure that the custom strength and custom agility aren't things that would be considered "non-invasive" or superficial.
The onus is on you to connect the information, then. Each superficial cybernetic limb comes with it's own strength and agility 3.
Gonna have to put the responsibility back on you there. I was going off of the meager information that you posted. I don't even know what book those are in, I checked Arsenal, Augmentation, and even Attitude. Nothing that you posted indicates that the "superficial cyberlimbs" which are meant to allow someone without any implants to pose as someone who does function in the exact same way as actual cyberlimbs. Based on the description you posted they sound like simple casings that can hold a few gadgets.
-
And you'll note that as mentioned before in this thread, it seems to be pretty consistent that technological augmentations to Reaction are unavailable without Essence costs.
What I've noted is that you appear to have cast your opinion already and are outwardly closed off to the idea from the ground up, but still feel like convincing someone else - or at least talking about the concept from a critical perspective. Also that I'm not in a position to be convinced it's impossible. Non-cyberware technological methods of increasing movement speed and reaction speed exist. From simsense to drones, the sixth world does not utilise software or hardware of a single uniform speed.
That's exactly my point, the user needs to have higher than minimum stats in order to be able to wear even the lightest of the mil-spec armors
I did say "barely above". You can't actually have a zero in an attribute, so increasing the smallest amount from the absolute lowest possible non-comatose rank leaves you at 2.
The 5th edition version of Milspec no longer even has access to the strength enhancements and other utilities that they had in the 4e book.
Which I consider on par with saying cranial containment unit cyborgs and cyberzombies can't exist until they receive a book in 5e, to say nothing of limited release or prototype technology (or just anything happening anywhere around the world outside the focus of the writers) that doesn't get into a book.
I was going off of the meager information that you posted. I don't even know what book those are in, I checked Arsenal, Augmentation, and even Attitude.
If you had told me you had no idea where to find it, I would have pointed you towards Spy Games. Can't blame me for you not knowing where to look and not asking before you push out that much of a reply.Based on the description you posted they sound like simple casings that can hold a few gadgets.
Whereas I interpret it less ... minimally.
-
And you'll note that as mentioned before in this thread, it seems to be pretty consistent that technological augmentations to Reaction are unavailable without Essence costs.
What I've noted is that you appear to have cast your opinion already and are outwardly closed off to the idea from the ground up, but still feel like convincing someone else - or at least talking about the concept from a critical perspective.
I'm waiting for anything supported by the rules that shows that someone should be able to manipulate the reaction time of a person's body without intensive measures. Give me an example of an external device that increases a user's Reaction and Initiative while leaving them in full control of their body.
Also that I'm not in a position to be convinced it's impossible.
So you're going to be critical of me not budging on the topic and then you outright say that you can't be convinced either? That's not hypocritical at all...
Non-cyberware technological methods of increasing movement speed and reaction speed exist. From simsense to drones, the sixth world does not utilise software or hardware of a single uniform speed.
simsense and drones don't change the reaction speed of the person, just take advantage of the faster response time of purely neural impulses. Trying to add the functionality of Wired Reflexes is actually speeding up the whole body of a person, not just their mind. Drones and driving them as if they were your body requires a Control Rig (essence). And its been pointed out by many others that Milspec armor isn't a drone, it doesn't act like a drone, and it doesn't have the functionality of a drone.
That's exactly my point, the user needs to have higher than minimum stats in order to be able to wear even the lightest of the mil-spec armors
I did say "barely above". You can't actually have a zero in an attribute, so increasing the smallest amount from the absolute lowest possible non-comatose rank leaves you at 2.
And rating 2 is also considered average for the common passersby. Not to mention that, as I said before, they are barely able to use the lightest of the light armor. The fact that it literally requires the wearer to be stronger than minimum is the entire point I was trying to make. The armor requires more than minimal assistance from the wearer. You can't be the weakest person ever and expect the armor to move for you, which is what you've been suggesting it already does.
I was going off of the meager information that you posted. I don't even know what book those are in, I checked Arsenal, Augmentation, and even Attitude.
If you had told me you had no idea where to find it, I would have pointed you towards Spy Games. Can't blame me for you not knowing where to look and not asking before you push out that much of a reply.Based on the description you posted they sound like simple casings that can hold a few gadgets.
Whereas I interpret it less ... minimally.
Either site your sources or don't get snippy when I point out that the information you quoted doesn't support your own idea. Nothing in the text you quoted says anything about the cyberlimbs being fully functioning augmentations, because they aren't.
"Superficial cybernetics" is in the section with all of the other gear meant for camouflage and disguises. It is literally just a fake casing that fits over your limbs. The description only states that they give a bonus on Disguise Tests and can hold "some functionality" but nothing intensive. Not to mention that the term superficial literally means "only appearing to be true until examined closely," these are fake cyberlimbs. It's like wearing tattoo sleeves, except to look like cyberlimbs.
-
Wow... I posted an idea and now it became a war... chill guys please.
The idea was, again, not about a powered armor like the ones you see in movies like Ironman and others. The idea was to create a modification to a Mil Spec armor that would do the same as Wired Reflexes.
The "fluff" like you guys love to talk about, is that you would install on the entire armor a huge network of sensors that would act like the nervous system of the user, feeding data and information directly through simsense to the user brain. Coupled with additional servors on the armor the user would be able to react faster.
Let me remember you guys that Wired Reflexes only deal with the nervous system of the user. No muscle or even spine modification is done (I dont remember seeing it in the text). That is so true that Wired Reflexes is compatible with other modifications like muscular replacement and bone lacing and etc.
The entire idea is based on the fact that Wired Reflexes is a modification that alter the nervous system of the user to allow him to perceive the world slower and thus being able to react faster. Since no muscle is modified the capacity for the user to react faster was always there, but the brain (and the nervous system) are not naturally capable of utilizing all the potential that the metahuman body is capable for. There is where this armor mod enter to "tap" into that potential from another approach.
Also I have asked for drawbacks and penalties for such system so that the cyber version would still be prefered to this method.
-
Wow... I posted an idea and now it became a war... chill guys please.
Things sometimes seem heated but it's rarely too serious. Don't worry, they're profesionals and also secretly gay lovers.
-
The idea was, again, not about a powered armor like the ones you see in movies like Ironman and others. The idea was to create a modification to a Mil Spec armor that would do the same as Wired Reflexes.
The "fluff" like you guys love to talk about, is that you would install on the entire armor a huge network of sensors that would act like the nervous system of the user, feeding data and information directly through simsense to the user brain. Coupled with additional servors on the armor the user would be able to react faster.
Let me remember you guys that Wired Reflexes only deal with the nervous system of the user. No muscle or even spine modification is done (I dont remember seeing it in the text). That is so true that Wired Reflexes is compatible with other modifications like muscular replacement and bone lacing and etc.
The entire idea is based on the fact that Wired Reflexes is a modification that alter the nervous system of the user to allow him to perceive the world slower and thus being able to react faster. Since no muscle is modified the capacity for the user to react faster was always there, but the brain (and the nervous system) are not naturally capable of utilizing all the potential that the metahuman body is capable for. There is where this armor mod enter to "tap" into that potential from another approach.
Also I have asked for drawbacks and penalties for such system so that the cyber version would still be prefered to this method.
The only problem with your idea as you just presented it is that the effects of Wired Reflexes is a two-way boost. It isn't just about perceiving the world around you faster, but also your body's ability to respond to your thoughts faster as well. The whole discussion about the armor being automated vs. functioning as a drone ties into that concept of if your mind is thinking at a higher speed, can your body actually keep up. Remember that Reaction is your Physical reaction time, while Agility is more like your coordination. If you are able to flinch twitch faster, that's your Reaction being boosted, but there isn't really a way for a suit of armor to make your twitch response faster.
-
Things sometimes seem heated but it's rarely too serious. Don't worry, they're profesionals and also secretly gay lovers.
Gnome, ninja, professional secret gay lover, assassin, & stripper, thank you. Only occasionally blowing things out of proportion.
<3 Kiirnodel.
-
The only problem with your idea as you just presented it is that the effects of Wired Reflexes is a two-way boost. It isn't just about perceiving the world around you faster, but also your body's ability to respond to your thoughts faster as well. The whole discussion about the armor being automated vs. functioning as a drone ties into that concept of if your mind is thinking at a higher speed, can your body actually keep up. Remember that Reaction is your Physical reaction time, while Agility is more like your coordination. If you are able to flinch twitch faster, that's your Reaction being boosted, but there isn't really a way for a suit of armor to make your twitch response faster.
I know its a two-way boost and yes your body can keep up.
Remember what I said about no muscle modifications being made to the user when instaling Wired Reflexes? Neural boosters and adrenalin stimulators are the modifications done to the user (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Wired_reflexes). In that way, it is clear that the body as a whole (in the muscle category of course) is capable of keep up with the increased perception time the user experiences. The key here is how you make the user experience that "altered perception time" in a different way other than the cyber implant and what drawbacks are there with this new method.
What I am asking for opinions in on the drawbacks and possible limitations that this system would have. For game balance.
-
My opinion that there would indeed be a drawback to this system is on the idea that since you are using a secondary system (simsense module) trasmiting the neural signals instead of using a direct method, there will be "delay" in the I/O.
I just dont know how to translate that "delay" into the game system, either by limiting the rating of this system or by imposing other form of penalties.
-
The point I was trying to make is that Wired Reflexes, with its neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators increases the physical reaction time, not just the neural response time to stimuli. Wired Reflexes is an extensive process that implants a variety of tech throughout the person's body so that they can process and respond faster. The idea that you've mentioned doesn't solve that second part, being able to "perceive faster" doesn't mean that the neural impulses to the person's body are going to be picked up any faster.
That "delay" is going to completely kill any sort of bonus to initiative. The initiative and reaction time bonus from Wired Reflexes (or Synaptic Boosters) is likely measured in fractions of a second. Any sort of delay where things need to be translated or transmitted, or whatever pretty much cancels out any sort of initiative boost you're likely to see.
By your description of what you want this accessory doing, it sounds more similar to the Responsive Interface Gear (RIG) that already exists (R&G pg 86). Combine that with a PI-Tac system, and you give the troop (or team) wearing the armor a pretty nice set-up for having increased tactical awareness. Combined with Leadership and proper group tactics, it can result in increased initiative as well as other bonuses.
Without something more invasive, though, I just don't see gear like that being able to increase response time (Reaction).
-
If you really want to delve deep into the Lore of shadowrun, you'll find this has been answered several times through out the setting and it's history. And there is no one simple answer, costs, setting, meta-gamming politics, as well as few other reasons.
I say, if you REALLY want what is basically "Mecha" Power Armor in your game, go for it. Charge the cost the Wired Reflexes X the essence cost for the upgrade (and THATS why you get the cyber!!), and go to town.
Just realize its not canon, nor supported by canon in any way. (By the simple fact that there is nothing like it in the books... and they are supposed to so the "best and popular" items of each type).
If your game does need to be canon, then your hooped.
But a little piece of advice from a long time game in a LONG time concurrent game (25 years, same game, same characters, same players): Canon goes out the window eventually :P
-
The point I was trying to make is that Wired Reflexes, with its neural boosters and adrenaline stimulators increases the physical reaction time, not just the neural response time to stimuli. Wired Reflexes is an extensive process that implants a variety of tech throughout the person's body so that they can process and respond faster. The idea that you've mentioned doesn't solve that second part, being able to "perceive faster" doesn't mean that the neural impulses to the person's body are going to be picked up any faster.
That "delay" is going to completely kill any sort of bonus to initiative. The initiative and reaction time bonus from Wired Reflexes (or Synaptic Boosters) is likely measured in fractions of a second. Any sort of delay where things need to be translated or transmitted, or whatever pretty much cancels out any sort of initiative boost you're likely to see.
By your description of what you want this accessory doing, it sounds more similar to the Responsive Interface Gear (RIG) that already exists (R&G pg 86). Combine that with a PI-Tac system, and you give the troop (or team) wearing the armor a pretty nice set-up for having increased tactical awareness. Combined with Leadership and proper group tactics, it can result in increased initiative as well as other bonuses.
Without something more invasive, though, I just don't see gear like that being able to increase response time (Reaction).
Thats why I said that in addition to the sensor mesh in the armor there would be also small aditional servors around the armor to help (the key word here is "help") the user move faster, but as I said before there would be a limit and the system would fail to keep up with the cyber version.
I am asking (game system wise) how to describe this inability for this armor mod to be equal to the Wired Reflexes cyber implant.
Do I limit the rating of the system?
Do I give a penalty in initiative checks?
Do I give a penalty to defense checks?
If you really want to delve deep into the Lore of shadowrun, you'll find this has been answered several times through out the setting and it's history. And there is no one simple answer, costs, setting, meta-gamming politics, as well as few other reasons.
I say, if you REALLY want what is basically "Mecha" Power Armor in your game, go for it. Charge the cost the Wired Reflexes X the essence cost for the upgrade (and THATS why you get the cyber!!), and go to town.
Just realize its not canon, nor supported by canon in any way. (By the simple fact that there is nothing like it in the books... and they are supposed to so the "best and popular" items of each type).
If your game does need to be canon, then your hooped.
But a little piece of advice from a long time game in a LONG time concurrent game (25 years, same game, same characters, same players): Canon goes out the window eventually :P
Again I am not talking about MECHA or even power armor.
A cybersuit (the main idea behind this) is not always a strength/armor/speed enhancing equipment. In this case I am just focusing on the reaction/speed part of the concept.
-
You might consider something closer to an external move-by-wire system - constantly preparing your muscles for movement in any direction, and releasing in any direction instantly.
-
You might consider something closer to an external move-by-wire system - constantly preparing your muscles for movement in any direction, and releasing in any direction instantly.
That is a idea for sure
-
If you are going to go with this idea,,,,
I'd suggest the person still need cyber-surgery.
Have the suit provide +1REA & +2Initiative per level up to level 3.
Level 1 requires a datajack & REA enhancers[1]
Level 2 requires a datajack & REA enhancers[2]
Level 3 requires a datajack & REA enhancers[3]
So level 3 would be (along with the enhancers) +6REA + 6 Initiative for a total of +12 added to the users initiative.
A person w/5 REA+5 INT would then be 22+1d6 Initiative (avg 25.5)
The same person w/wired ref[3] would be 13+4d6 (avg 27)or an avg of 30 if he also had the REA Enh[3]
The same person using M-B-W[3] would be 22+2d6 initiative (Avg 29)
The drawback would of course be that for the whole system to work, you'r using simsense and are subject to the addiction rules.
I'd probably have the suit incorporate P-Tac as well making it ultra-expensive and thus not mass-marketable.
-
Power armor has been one of the Holy Grails of SR since long before fraggin' 4e.
According to ancient SR lore (i.e. 1e London Sourcebook, p. 126 - fair warning, it's written by SR's very own Horrors, Carl Sargent and Marc Gasciogne), the Countess of Snowdon, Rhiannon Glendower, has a group of 80 cyber-monsters and adepts called the Knights of Snowdon (or Knights of Harlech). (Harlech Castle is, according to the book, the seat of the County of Snowdon.) The Knights of Snowdon/Harlech wear what basically amounts to power armor - taking a point-blank assault cannon round to the chest as well as a 'powerbolt that would have shredded an APC', all sorts of goodies. Fuchi had a ¥1,000,000 'finder's fee' for a suit.
So you can feel free to ignore what everyone says - but as a GM I would not let it stay in the player's hands for very long. Once you use it, people know you have it, still other people want it, and suddenly you're encased in a 300 kilo suit with dwindling power resources and every ganger, mobster, and shadowrunner in the sprawl gunning for you.